1 March 2006
Tony Blair, the Education Secretary and school representatives answered questions from journalists about the new Education and Inspections Bill.
· All schools will benefit from reforms - PM
Tony Blair:
Good afternoon everyone. Thanks very much for coming along to this press briefing. Now I have with me, in addition to Ruth, Jules Pipe from Hackney, Hazel Harding from Lancashire, Ronnie Round from Knowsley, and Leo Thompson from Ealing, and these are four local authority leaders who are doing exciting and interesting things in their area to improve education and also can talk about some of the opportunities that are there in the Education White Paper for local authorities and schools to grasp.
So I thought what might be interesting in the run-up to what will obviously be an important vote is to get some sense both of how schooling has been changing in the past few years, but also about the opportunities there are for the future. And the best way to do it is to get, I mean these are the guys actually at the frontline, and they are the ones doing it, and the best thing is to let them speak for themselves. So Jules if you would kick off. What we will do is we will take all four local authority leaders, Ruth will just say a quick word at the end, and then we will open it up for questions.
Jules Pipe
Well I have been asked to come along today and just very briefly talk about some of the things that we are doing in Hackney and why I believe that the White Paper is a good way forward for schools across the country.
The Hackney Education service and its schools are already very much aligned with the White Paper in many regards. As a local authority, I see that we are there to champion the values and ambitions for children's education in the local area. I believe that managerial leadership doesn't have to be exercised through the local authority, in fact local authorities haven't run schools for many, many years now, and in Hackney that managerial leadership is exercised through a very innovative organisation called the Learning Trust, with its own board chaired by Sir Mike Tomlinson, who of course many of you will remember was the former Chief Inspector of Schools at Ofsted.
Now the LA is represented on the board, along with many other partners, and those partners are there to contribute their expertise and talent and knowledge to raising school standards, and that is the primary task of the Learning Trust, it is to raise school standards, and it really is achieving that. In the last three years the number of pupils achieving good GCSE passes has risen by 50per cent, it has gone from 32 per cent to 48 per cent in just three years, and that is a remarkable achievement in such a short space of time.
Now as per the White Paper, we also intervene decisively in failing schools. For the first time in 20 years Hackney has no school in special measures or any other Ofsted special category. Again, that is really remarkable.
We are also exercising the duty to plan for school places, and that is at the heart of the White Paper as well. It is a strategic plan built on consultation with parents who actually live in Hackney, and that is the key thing. And in line with the White Paper we have also been acting as the commissioner for school places, and as part of that we are commissioning five city academies, and all of them should be open by 2010. And those city academies are created in partnership between the local authority, the Learning Trust and also obviously the sponsors involved in those academies, and the sponsors that we have chosen all have a direct Hackney connection, which is very welcome and very popular with local people.
I would just like to touch briefly on some of those academies. Four of them are brand new schools. Mossbourne, one of them, has opened, very, very popular with all the parents that I have talked to, there are some incredible stories, children who weren't necessarily that keen on education in their primaries are now going in for 7.00 in the morning, whether it is breakfast clubs to play football, and then they are not coming home until 6.00 or 7.00 at night because of the activities that go on in the schools. You know these are creating very committed and motivated pupils.
Another one will be with UBS, the first corporate sponsor of a city academy, part of their corporate social responsibility programme. For years they have placed mentors in our schools to work with children, as well as the heads and bursars of schools, they have had hundreds of mentors in our schools and it really has raised the aspirations of pupils when they are taken into city institutions they thought they would never actually step inside, and they actually say that, they look around these places, and I have been with them when they have done that, and they look around them and they say: "I never thought that I would actually be allowed into a building like this". And actually working in partnership with organisations like that, you know you can get to do these innovative things and actually really raise the aspirations of those children.
Another one will be the Corporation of London, which is going to be a very exciting project to work on the city academy with them. Again it is a partnership between our local authority, the Trust and also a partnership with another local authority effectively being the corporation.
The fifth one will be a kind of conversion, it is the existing Skinners Company voluntary aided school, it will go mixed and it will be based in Woodbury Down, which actually is a regeneration of about 4,000 new homes, probably the biggest regeneration project in Europe, and that will provide a mixed secondary school in the heart of that community.
Now in line with the White Paper we have ensured that the nature of the academies deliver what local parents have been demanding - mixed non-denominational, non-selective schools. And we have delivered that through local authority leadership and influence, but not control. It just hasn't proved necessary if one takes one's responsibilities properly, as they outlined in the White Paper, and we have been doing that over the last two or three years. So I am more than happy to endorse the White Paper in outlining that again and suggesting that that is actually the way forward for all local authorities.
Also all our academies have agreed to be part of clustering arrangements with existing schools, and actually that dovetails very well with the federation of our proposal that is also at the heart of the White Paper. All those schools are part of these clusters, and I suppose now we will refer to them as federations, they are all committed to sharing best practice, access to all facilities, sharing facilities, sharing their curricula, and also of course federated sixth forms, because not every school will want one, but they will have pupils who will want to go on and know that there is a clear pathway into a sixth form that is part of their school, even though it is not necessarily physically located within their building.
So the local authority is going to be key to also delivering on the government's investment of £167 million in all our existing schools, because this isn't just about building new ivory towers, this is about making sure all our schools offer the best to the pupils in our borough.
Now those are just a few of the reasons why I would endorse the reforms in the White Paper. I mean Hackney has effectively been piloting many of them over the last few years and they work, it is as simple as that. Local parents want more school places, they want better schools, and in partnership with others, as a few of them have outlined, that is what we are delivering in Hackney, we are putting children at the heart of the schools and education agenda, and that is what it has got to be about.
Hazel Harding:
I too welcome the opportunity to come and support the White Paper. I do so as leader of Lancashire. Lancashire is the fourth largest local authority in England, and arguably I would say the most diverse. We have got towns with similar characteristics and challenges to any deprived inner city area, and also have large rural areas with more affluent residents, and also some of the challenges that rural communities present. We are recognised as an excellent authority, achieved four stars in the most recent inspection, and our education service is particularly well regarded.
Excellent doesn't mean perfect, and we are an authority that is always looking to improve. We have more than 600 schools and they perform well for their pupils. Generally children entering our primary schools have below average attainment, those leaving our secondary schools have attainment above the national average. This reflects positively on the work both of our schools and our services that support school improvement. We used to talk about the Lancashire family of schools, and I think that that was appropriate, we now talk about Club Lancashire, and I think that is even more appropriate. Clubs are things that people join because they want to be a part of it where you work in cooperation, you don't always choose your family, and our schools are part of Club Lancashire because they want to be a part of what we are doing as a local authority, they want to work with other schools in neighbouring areas, but they also want to deliver for their children in their communities and they want to deliver in their own way. We no longer run schools, and haven't done so for a long, long time.
I welcome in the White Paper the strengthened role for local authorities in helping to drive up standards, in particular as an elected member I am hugely supportive of our role as champion of the best interests of children, families and communities. Councillors, as leaders of their communities, need to be able to advocate for the children of the community, particularly those from disadvantaged groups, youngsters from homes where English is not the first language. Children with special educational needs or living in poverty need access to the best quality of education if they are to achieve their potential, and we have a special responsibility of course for children who are looked after by the authority.
Of Lancashire's more than 640 schools, more than half are voluntary aided, just under half are community and we have a number of foundation schools. We regard all categories of schools being of equal worth and there are successful schools among the community voluntary and foundation ones in Lancashire. If schools wish to pursue trust status, that would add to the diversity within our authority, it would add to choice and also give different options to parents in different areas.
We support the principle of self-managing schools and will continue to promote partnership and collaboration to ensure that local management and diversity helps meet the needs of individual children in Lancashire.
I am glad the White Paper recognises the role that local authorities play in coordinating and monitoring admission areas in their area. This will enable foundation and trust schools to have freedom to adopt admission arrangements appropriate to their schools, but within a co-ordinated framework to ensure that the needs of all local children are met.
The strong Admissions Code of Practice proposed will ensure that admissions authorities operate fair and transparent policies and arrangements. The White Paper also recognises that partnership and co-operative working is the best way to find appropriate places for all children, and local authorities play an important strategic role in leading organisation and planning.
High transport costs, particularly in an area like mine, have proved a barrier for some families, and I welcome additional entitlements for pupils in receipt of welfare benefits which will enable them to access schools which may otherwise have not been available to them. We look forward to working with our schools under the new arrangements.
Ronnie Round:
Good afternoon everyone. I am Ronnie Round. I am quite happy to be standing here speaking to you, representing Knowsley, to speak in the course of the government's White Paper.
Knowsley's wider aims for building schools for the future match very closely with the wider aims of government, set out in the White Paper. We both talk about an historic turning point for secondary education, a wish to transform the secondary school system, driving out under-achievement in deprived areas and improving life chances. We both wish to create a world class system of learning and make sure that every child receives an excellent education, has an excellent learning centre with excellent staff in an excellent system at the heart of our community.
We both recognise that it will take courage and commitment to reform and that no change is not an option, and we too are frustrated with the way that secondary education has failed to respond to national stimuli. It has taken a lot of investment at a local level and a fair degree of risk taking to bend the current systems to meet the requirements of our Knowsley pupils.
In Knowsley we had the primary, literacy and numeracy strategy before the government introduced the national strategies, and we had invested in ICT in our schools before the government's national grid for learning initiative. Our progress under Building Schools for the Future follows behind year on year improvements at GCSE and builds upon our pathfinder work on 14 - 19 year olds, and our two beacon status awards for transforming secondary education and integrated children's services.
The BSF is a catalyst for improvements and a once in a lifetime opportunity, and as leader I am proud to witness the inclusion in the White Paper of our Building Schools for the Future programme as an example of a transformation approach to secondary education.
When we were visited by Jacqui Smith last November we discussed with her first hand the contents of the White Paper, I was happy to hear her confirm that our approach to building schools for the future was held in such regard by the government and we will continue to strive to make it a great success.
Knowsley favours building a local system of schools, linked through federations and collaborations, planning together, working together, sharing resources and good practice, supporting and complementing each other. We envisage a wider approach to the education of the child with other partners such as health, primary care trust, local FE college, higher education partners, private sector, voluntary and community groups etc playing a significant role in planning the local system for the benefit of all.
We see the strategic role of the local authority changing to ensure that the system benefits all, it is quality assured to ensure standards are maintained and improved and meets the interest of Knowsley's communities. We see that there is potential for trusts involving groups of schools, but this would need to be in the context of wider over-arching accountabilities.
We felt that there was a presumption in the White Paper that only individuals could transform education. We feel that there is evidence that in Knowsley the local authority has driven the improvements and that local authorities can be more than bureaucrats if they put their minds to it.
So I am heartened that Jacqui Smith heeded our comments in what was a very productive discussion with her last November, the result being that the local authority's strategic role is recognised as key to the reforms in the White Paper.
And just in conclusion, in Knowsley we feel that the White Paper offers many opportunities, and it is not sufficient for local authorities to make the case for staying as they are. We accept that no change is not an option, and that should also be the case for every other local authority.
Leonora Thompson:
Thank you very much. I am Leo Thompson from Ealing, I will just give you a bit of a picture of the borough, a bit of a postage stamp of it. It is the third largest London borough, incredibly diverse with more I think than over 70 per cent of pupils in our schools from black, minority ethnic communities, and huge contrasts in wealth, some very affluent areas, some very poor and deprived areas, and also on educational attainment, some of our longest established groups. For example the Sikh population, achieve very highly at school, but actually white working class boys and black Caribbean boys for example are some of our poorest current performers.
I think I too hugely welcome the opportunity to come here to support the White Paper. Many of the government's education policies so far have been enormously beneficial for us, and have actually really laid the ground for this White Paper. The government has contributed hugely to our ability as a council to raise children's attainment in schools, and particularly to close this achievement gap between the different kinds of pupils, and that is through the policies such as national primary and secondary strategies, increasing personalisation of the curriculum, introduction of all the broadband and other ICT technologies throughout schools, and the establishment of specialist schools and the real diversity of provision which we are beginning to get across the council, so it is not just community schools, we have also got academies, foundation schools etc, and lastly things like excellence in cities and the London Challenge as well.
We have also, I have to say, significantly benefited from the investment by government with over £230 million alone going into refurbished and new schools, and that is even before the many millions extra into teaching and learning within those schools. And what that has actually done is that has actually significantly raised achievement for 11 year olds essentially. In late 1997 there were less than two-thirds of our 11 years olds actually achieving level 4, the considered good level in English, maths and science, and now that is over three quarters of the pupils in our schools. And for our 11 - 16 year olds it is an even bigger difference, from 38 per cent getting the five A - C GCSEs in 1997, it is now 60 per cent today, and we were last year the most improved local authority area in the country in terms of this value added achievement.
And this is around us not actually controlling schools, like all the others have said, actually we are working already in partnership with our schools, but with other providers as well, to try to make sure that we really close that achievement gap. And especially now we need to go further with groups of young people where improvement has proved really, really difficult.
So what the White Paper will do for us, it will cement our strategic role as a local authority acting on behalf of the community as a whole, it will formally make us champion of parents and children and allow us as community leaders to lead the partnership working that is so vital if we are going to deliver the Every Child Matters framework enshrined in the Children Act of 2004. I am particularly pleased that it gives us the ability to intervene and support under-performing schools far earlier than we can do now, where at the moment we can't actually go in and help them until they are perceived to be failing already, and that is of course too late for generations of children. And we can now take a really personal approach to each child and young person, for example through the extra funding that is being provided for those who have fallen behind, and allowing them to be taught in much smaller class sizes in groups, which interestingly is the classic attraction to parents who are going into the private sector for education, and actually putting children at the centre of what we do.
We welcome the fair access, which was backed up by the new powers given to admissions forums, which will give keep local communities and schools and other education and training providers focused again on the needs of the children and needs of those families. And then lastly, for the 14 - 19 age range, it will allow us to develop different approaches for different individuals, it will give the flexibility to be able to work with a wider range of partners, but actually also it will build in the safeguards around governance so that we can make sure that you know we are doing the right thing by linking to our colleges, universities and to other businesses. For example in Ealing we have got a massive creative industry sector, including things like the renowned Ealing Film studios, and also important links with the Heathrow industries, which we can really capitalise on for some of our young people.
So in short we believe, and I believe strongly, the White Paper gives us the means to take that next big step forward in improving the life chances of all our young people, not through control but through partnership and leading that partnership, and that is really what we, and I am sure all my colleagues, are looking for.
Ruth Kelly:
Let me just continue this by saying a few words. We have a huge amount of really, really good practice out there, up and down the country, being led by local authorities working on the ground with their schools in making sure that really good things happen for kids. And it is quite exciting when you look at what is going on, and some people say you know the White Paper, where did it come from? Well it came from looking at what works, and you see here a collection of people who are already out there making the changes that are necessary, but look at the reforms in the White Paper and say look there is a whole new set of measures in the White Paper which will allow us to move that step further to really tackle some of the deep structural issues that there are in secondary education, but also in primary, and to help us perform even better for our children.
And I think that is the strong message that I hear, that the strategic role of the local authorities is one that is welcomed by local authorities. It hasn't been the case for years that local authorities have, or indeed have wanted, to run the everyday affairs of schools, what they want to do is get on with the job of raising standards for children, introducing diversity, working with external partners where it makes a big difference, and intervening early and quickly where schools are under-performing or failing.
So thank you very much, and that is certainly a lesson for us.
Tony Blair:
Right, we will take some questions now. And as I say, the interesting thing is here you have got people, we are kind of talking the talk, but these guys are actually walking the walk, which is slightly more difficult and impressive.
Question:
Both to you and each of the local authority leaders, how many trust schools would you hope to have say within 1 year and 5 years of this Bill being enacted?
Tony Blair:
I think it is difficult to put a precise number on it. This isn't the end of permissive power, but we are going to have a lot of support around schools that decide that they might benefit from an external partner or a new foundation to help them, but it is essentially up to the schools, to the teachers and parents there if they think this is going to be of benefit to them. And I think the important thing to stress about the proposals is that it does build on what is working already, it is up to the schools themselves, no-one is forcing it on them, but we want to get as many as want to of the right type of partners and helpers in order to do better for their children. And I can't be clear as to the exact number, but I think that a lot of schools will want to take advantage of this.
Question:
And will it be in the hundreds?
Tony Blair:
We will just have to see. If you will forgive me, I don't think there is any point in trying to put a kind of arbitrary figure on it, but I don't know, I suppose there will be a lot of appetite for this provided it is done in the right way I guess.
Ronnie Round:
It is an interesting question really. We have discussed this quite openly with our partners in Knowsley and there is still a lot of discussion to take place from here on in, particularly when the government wins the vote tomorrow on the Education Bill. But from Knowsley's perspective we really do favour having one trust covering our whole new 8 learning centres when we build them, and we think that that will be the best way to deliver the government's agenda at a local level.
Ruth Kelly:
I think we will see all sorts of models emerging, I think we will see some local authorities that want to go out there and sit on the trusts, I think we will see some local authorities that say to the schools as groups, you know what sort of trust might help you build the relationships you need with your external partners? If you have got a problem with vocational education, securing the buy-in of business for work opportunities, you want to plan a new facility between you, can we help you set up a trust for example? Or they might say look we have got a particular issue here with whatever it is, it might be getting the support of health or social services into the school, how can we work with our local partners to make that happen?
So there will be some schools out there asking for trusts, and some local authorities going to schools and saying how can we improve standards, how can we link successful schools to weaker schools, but what is the local issue that you are facing and how can we help you solve that problem? So I think you will see a diverse range of experiences, and here you have got a whole variety of examples of what is happening already on the ground with lots of different models.
Jules Pipe:
In Hackney we have already effectively done this over-arching trust that covers effectively the governance in our community schools.
Question:
So you wouldn't need another trust within your ...
Jules Pipe:
Well as the Prime Minister said, it is permissive, not instructive. So therefore if a school then wants to develop their own trust just for their own governance then that is fine. As I said, at the moment our community schools are very much engaged, and the VA schools are very much engaged with Building Schools for the Future, which is obviously a huge project, and that involves everyone working together in partnership, that brings everybody in close contact with a wide range of partners, external to the local authority. So at the moment they are perhaps getting the benefits of say a trust status without actually having their very own one. Maybe after Building Schools for the Future is over and effectively there isn't the kind of physical change going on in their lives, then perhaps they may want to explore that.
Tony Blair:
And you have got how many city academies do you reckon in Hackney?
Jules Pipe:
Well we will have 5, I am determined that we will have 5 by about 2010, we will certainly have 4 by 2009, and one is already open and it is incredibly over-subscribed and we are confident that the new academies will be equally as popular. A second one is opening this September, and again heavily over-subscribed. So we are determined to roll out the programme so that rather than having a few that are heavily over-subscribed, everyone will be able to find a good quality school place for their child, because that is all that matters at the end of the day.
Tony Blair:
And you know I think you will probably find that a very large number of schools want to go down this route.
Question:
Could I ask the Education Secretary, are there any more concessions to be made to get this Bill through? Are you adamant now that you have made all the concessions you are going to make? For example, would you even consider giving up the veto on allowing local authorities to open community schools? And Prime Minister, I wonder if I could ask you how important is this Education Bill to your third term, is this a defining moment in your third term? And I also have to ask you if you agree with David Blunkett and others that the best way to clear Tessa Jowell's name would be for Gus O'Donnell to hold an independent inquiry?
Ruth Kelly:
Shall I deal with the first question first?
Tony Blair:
I think you should, yes, and you can deal with the second question as well if you like.
Ruth Kelly:
I have spent the last number of months talking to back benchers, talking to local authority leaders, going out and talking to people with an interest in education about what they think is right for our children, what are the measures they welcome in the White Paper, how are they going to use them, what sort of clarifications or safeguards, reassurances do they need? Now I brought all of that together when I responded to Barry Shearman in what I thought, because he and his colleagues on the Select Committee had also made a very constructive input into those discussions in a very forward way. Tomorrow, alongside the publication of the Bill, we will be producing a formal response to the Select Committee, and what I can say is that the response that I made then was the fullest possible response that I could have made to those concerns.
There are a couple of particular issues that people have, one was around admissions, and I think we have completely dealt with the admissions issues now and I think that came across earlier as well. Local authorities will be able to co-ordinate admissions to schools themselves, come together and discuss what is appropriate for themselves, working within a flexible but robust framework in which interviews in particular are banned and in which we legislate to make it absolutely clear to everyone that there will be no new selection by academic ability. The other specific issue that people had concerns about was whether local authorities would be able to propose in future new community schools, and I think it is worth bearing in mind for a second that in fact last year there were already 15 new schools in total out of 3,500 secondary schools.
They made I think quite an interesting and compelling case, which was if parents came and said this is what we want, this is a good local education authority delivering well for its children, and it could do it better than any alternative, the local authority should be able to put forward that proposal. Of course if they did that then that would have to be judged by an independent adjudicator alongside other potential proposals as well, and I think that is a very sensible move for the government to make.
Now the reason that the so-called Secretary of State veto is there is because I am really concerned that local authorities do think through what is in the best interests of children. But I have also made it clear that if there is a good local authority delivering well for its children and it comes up with a proposal where clearly this is a proposal that would command parental consent, then of course they should be able to enter the competition.
Tony Blair:
On the last point, I don't think I am afraid I have got anything to add at this stage to what my spokesman said earlier today at the Lobby.
In respect of how important this is, well I think it is extremely important obviously to the future of a Labour government that has invested a massive amount in our schools, seen real improvements, done the same with healthcare, but recognises that because of the extra investment, the extra numbers of people that we have employed, we need to make sure that there is excellence driven right throughout the system.
And whilst there still remain significant numbers of young people not getting the education they need, even though things are far better than they were a decade ago, we have got to continue with change, and change in order to help children, particularly those from the most disadvantaged backgrounds, but not only those children, to do better and fulfil their potential. And so for me this is absolutely the crux of what a Labour government is about. We have put in the investment, but people need to see those results there, and we can point to great progress so far that it isn't good enough yet and it needs to be better, and that is what this is about.
Question:
I just wanted to say, we have listened to representatives from the local authorities, they are clearly on board, they are clearly very supportive. Why has it been such a struggle then to get so many of your own back benchers on board when clearly the people on the ground, or many of them, have been clearly in favour of doing these things all the time, and you haven't been able to sort of allay their fears and suspicions about what this Bill is really about it seems to a large extent, and what are you going to say to them this evening Prime Minister?
Tony Blair:
Well it is a good point, but it is not a point maybe to address primarily to me in a way. Look, whenever you propose change you get a kick-back, and anyone who has ever led an organisation or proposed change knows that the first thing that happens is that people express great concern, great worry, they think the change is going to result in bad things happening. We had exactly the same furore over earlier reforms that we have done. Those reforms are now accepted. I think these changes will be accepted too. And what is interesting about the local authority leaders here, which is why I thought it was helpful for them to come along and talk to you about it, is that these are all people already engaged in these types of partnerships, they see the White Paper as an opportunity, not a threat, and frankly for anybody who really cares about raising standards in education, we need to use every bit of energy we have got in the country to do it. And of course employers have got a role in education, so have universities, so have the major voluntary and charitable foundations, and the good local authorities are already working with them as partners to raise standards.
So obviously what I will be saying to my colleagues this evening is that this is an important moment for the government, very often when we have been faced with difficult reform we have had controversy, but when we have persisted and got the reform done, we have reaped the benefit of it. And it will be the same again, because as I say if you look back over the last few years there has been a massive increase in investment in the public infrastructure of the country, and many problems that were endemic in schools are no longer there, like the absence of proper computer facilities, the outside toilets, the crumbling buildings, and all of that is being renovated, the standards are rising, but we need to make sure they rise right throughout the system. And it isn't good enough, if you have got a school with fewer than 30 per cent of kids getting 5 good GCSEs, it is not good enough for them, and that is why we have got to make sure we put these changes through.
Question:
Hackney already has its own trust, and foundation schools have sort of similar powers to the ones that the trust schools will have. Why do you need legislation to bring about this change, and wouldn't you have saved yourself a lot of heartache if you hadn't had legislation?
Tony Blair:
Well you have got to have legislation for a whole series of the changes, like the right to discipline for example, which is a very, very important aspect. And what should never be forgotten in this White Paper is there is a whole part of it that frankly I think practically everybody agrees with them is very important in relation to the personalisation of learning and discipline. But it is also important that people have got the power to get the governance arrangements that they want, and that is why you need that change.
Question:
You obviously like what these local authorities are doing, and they like what you are doing, but there are a lot of them out there who are more nervous and critical. What were they doing wrong such that you feel you have got to change the system?
Tony Blair:
Well you see I don't think it is a question of what people are doing wrong, I think you have got to look back and say what are the things that we have introduced that have made a positive difference in education - literacy and numeracy, specialist schools, the new city academy programme, excellence in cities. All those things that have been changes in reforms, incidentally all of which at the time were powerfully disagreed with by sections of the educational community, those give us the basis, the foundation upon which we can build the next stage of reform. And all I am saying, and actually I can tell this in the conversations I am having with many local authorities, including some mainly that have been quite vocal opponents of this so far, they are now beginning to sit down and think about them and think well maybe if we were to work with some of the partners we are already working with, perhaps we could do a lot more.
And the interesting thing about any of these local authorities is they have been doing public-private partnerships, they are in the graduate school of that where government is still basically getting out of the primary school stage in many ways, these people have been doing this at a local level. And so I think that one thing that has happened in the past few weeks is that in the local authority sector, once these guys who actually have to do this sit down and look at it, they are saying well hang on a minute, there is lots that we can do here. And you know if you take some, as Ronnie was talking about in Knowsley, basically he is talking about the whole of the secondary education being re-shaped in Knowsley. I think once people start to think about the vision behind this then I confidently predict to you that if, as I hope, this thing goes through, in a year's time people will scratch their heads and say well what was all that about.
Question:
Are you surprised by the defence of LEAs that is engendered amongst your own backbenchers, they see it as a bastion of decency in the local communities as being a bit maligned?
Tony Blair:
But I think you know, as we did try to say at the time, and we have been saying ever since, the fact is that local authorities are like any of the rest of us, including central government. Here there are great examples of the thing being done well and there are examples of it being done less well. The important thing is though in today's world it is all about putting power in the hands of local people, and the role of government, central or local, is to help people do what they want to do. So our job is not to sit there and say don't do this and don't do that, our job is to sit there and say look, if you have got a vision for schooling in your area then we can help you realise it, and incidentally here is our vision, which if you can buy into, we can do this in partnership together. Now that is what the best people are already doing.
In the end everyone has got to make up their minds about this issue, but I hope that people look at the progress there has been, and there has been real progress, I know from my own constituency, you go to any school in my constituency and you can see the investment there has been there, and by and large the results are significantly better, better at 11 year old, better at 16, better even at 18. But we have got to do better still because they are not as good as they need to be in a world in which economically and socially, unless you develop the human capital of each and every one of our children then we will fail. So I just took it in the end, I mean my job is to give the leadership and put the arguments and then people have got to make up their minds as to whether they want to follow or not.
Question:
Just a follow-up to that really, do you believe that you will retain the support of your party if this Bill only passes with opposition support?
Tony Blair:
Well I think again, Tony, the way to put that back to you is to say this Bill, this White Paper Bill tomorrow has the overwhelming support of people. And as the local authority leaders here today show, and there could be many others that could have come today. Now the most important thing, as I said at my press conference last Thursday, is we do the right thing for the country, and the people out in the country will be looking at the government and expecting us to do what is right for them. And you know there is I think a procedure - is it 2 years down there is a review of how this has worked? - in a couple of years time we will have a review of how this has worked.
But I confidently predict to you, as I was saying a moment or two ago, that it will show that schools voluntarily, and local authorities, are getting the right synergies between independent, public and voluntary and charitable sectors in their area to improve the schooling of children. And I remember a few years back when foundation hospitals were to be the end of the NHS, but actually foundation hospitals are leading the way in the NHS today and all hospitals are now moving over time to foundation status, and as far as I am aware there is no rebellion going on about it at all, but at the time you will remember it was a cause of absolute fundamental disagreement in certain quarters. You know anybody from any organisation that has ever put through change knows that it is a painful process.
Question:
The role of LEAs and selection seem to be the two sticking points with your own party on this Bill. I was just wondering two little points on that. One, are there too many hurdles stopping Trust schools from being set up in the Bill in your view, giving the role of some kind of veto to LEAs in appeals and so forth? And we have heard the four leaders say today that LEAs have long since ceased to run education in their areas, so what is all the fuss about? And the other point on selection is, today we have heard Cyril Taylor saying that he would like to cherry pick youngsters at 11, not for secondary school, but for university. How can this work when we are ruling out selection in the Bill?
Tony Blair:
I haven't quite really read those comments, but I suspect they are less earth shattering than they ... not that I am suggesting that anyone would in any shape or form exaggerate them. There is going to be no hurdle to a school becoming a trust school, it is up to the school to decide. It is very important to realise that, the essential freedoms are there as of choice. The whole point is that at the moment there is an appeals procedure on admissions, and that appeals procedure will apply to the local authority as well, but the trust comes into being by the school deciding that that is what it wants to do. Now you have to have protections for example in case you have the wrong type of people who want to take over a trust for some reason, not that frankly I can see much point in a school wanting to enter into an arrangement with such people, but if you did have such a thing then the Secretary of State retains powers, you know you have got to have reserve powers to intervene in these situations. But there is no obstacle to a trust school becoming a trust school, they can decide to do that.
Question:
Prime Minister, despite the comments from Knowsley, there is great fear in Liverpool amongst MPs and Councillors that we will end up with a two tier system, with the sink schools sinking deeper and the better schools out-performing. What do you say to that?
Tony Blair:
Yes, I say the great test is what actually happens. I opened a school in Liverpool the other day which is a new city academy which is going to be Protestant and Catholic working together. Go and talk to the people at that school and tell them that what is happening is that they are creating a two tier system. What they would say to you is we are actually getting rid of the two tier system. And look let us end the myth that somehow what you have is a uniform system of schooling across the country at the moment where everybody gets the same opportunities and where middle class parents and those from very low incomes enjoy exactly the same facilities. This is the great myth at the heart of this debate. The fact of the matter is I know perfectly well from my own constituency, but you can see it in any part of London that you go to, is that it is often in the areas of most disadvantage that the least high quality educational facilities are there, and that is why we want to raise the profile.
I know Hackney as a part of London because I lived there for a time, and the fact of the matter is a few years ago the schooling system was going downhill, I think you would have to say. Now as a result of good local leadership, but also as a result of change, it has been turned around. The reason why Ronnie has put forward his programme in Knowsley is not because he thinks the status quo is satisfactory, he wants it changed and improved. So this is why I think it is important. And I think we can be very, very confident in what will happen, that if you get some of these major sponsors coming in, and external partners, it will make a big difference and they can help a school.
Question:
I think it was Alan Milburn who said a few months ago that the success of this reform should be based on how closely it resembles the Swedish reform, which you yourself ... in the foreword to the White Paper. But certainly from a lot of people's readings of both the White Paper and the Swedish system it is a failure in that respect. Do you think that you have had to water the Bill down to such an extent that it doesn't remotely approximate to the Swedish system?
Tony Blair:
No. Look, the point about any system, whether it is something from Sweden, or America, or indeed from Finland which people also mention from the other perspective, is that there are all sorts of differences but there are certain key elements that are the same. And the notion of schools having greater freedom and independence is a notion that yes you find in Sweden, you find it in parts of the US, but you also find it developing right round the world at the moment. All over the world, all public sectors are coming to terms with the same issue. This is why public service reform is an issue, it is because as societies develop, as in every other walk of life, people get more individualised services, greater diversity of supply, mass production is on its way out, people lead different lifestyles with different needs, so the issue right round the world with any developed country and its public services is how do you produce the quality and personalisation that people take for granted in other walks of life?
And that is the issue, that is why all these debates are happening. And actually you could take Sweden or the USA, but in fact you could take Germany, you could take half a dozen European countries and look at the same thing, you could go and look at what is happening in Australia or Canada. It is like reform of university finance, we weren't the first country to reform university finance, virtually every major country around the world is looking to reform its university finance. And that is why I say this is just a part of the way things are and it makes sense I think.
Question:
We have heard from Hackney, there are trusts there, specialist schools can already include external partners. Can you name two specific new powers, now freedoms, that schools will have as a result of this Bill that they don't have already?
Tony Blair:
Yes, Ruth may come in with some more of the detail, but the essence of this is, just so that you realise what is evolutionary and then what is a major change. What is evolutionary is this, that you have these governance arrangements for voluntary aided schools, you have external partners being there for specialist schools and city academies, you have in foundation schools already, which were a lot of the old GM schools but also other schools as well, you have the freedom to own the assets, manage the staff and so on. So you have these freedoms in different parts of the system. What is the big change is to bring it together and say schools can enjoy that as of right if they choose to do that, subject to the safeguards that we have set out. Now that is essentially the major change.
Ruth Kelly:
Absolutely right. Take ... school federation between a really successful school and a failing school, at the moment a local authority could go in, could force those schools, well not force but encourage them to come together and federate, in the hardest possible sense, a hard federation, they could start to share facilities and staff and so on. But actually at any moment in time one of those governing bodies could get up and walk out the door and the partnership would fall apart. What they are going to be able to do in the future is to have the freedom to own their own assets, to manage their own staff, but also to cement that partnership in a more permanent fashion. Now that is a sort of different order of bringing schools together, and you can imagine that reaching out to other external partners as well, as they do in the academies programme, bringing in the sponsors, bringing in the voluntary sector, binding those people into the future of the school system in a way that it is simply not possible to do that at the moment.
Jules Pipe:
Ruth, could I just add, going back to the point that we already have some of these things, why do we need the legislation? The learning trust in Hackney did need legislation, it was Hackney specific legislation that permitted the setting up of the learning trust. So there is a fundamental need there to have legislation to enable these things to happen across the board, although there will be local choice whether they happen, they won't necessarily be able to do it, and I am sure the government has better things to do than spend all its time making individual specific legislation for different local authorities.
Question:
I wanted to ask the leader of Lancashire County Council, you say that nearly half of your schools are community schools, will you be actually recommending to them in some way that they become trust schools, and if so what will you be saying are the advantages of becoming a trust school?
Hazel Harding:
I will say to them that it is a matter for them, it is a matter for the schools and their governors to look at the options, that Lancashire will work with them if they want to become trust schools, but will be equally happy to continue working with them as community schools. I think it will be far more of an evolutionary thing within Lancashire, in the same way as we saw the specialist schools where it was fairly slow to take off, but once it did it gained its own momentum.
Question:
Prime Minister, you mentioned earlier, you said I hope to get this thing through - presumably the Bill. How big a personal disaster will it be if you don't?
Tony Blair:
There is no point in trying...look you guys are the commentators, I am simply trying to get the thing done. But it stands to reason obviously that it is important for the government to get through a major programme of change. But I think what is more interesting than the process is just to focus on why it is important, and the reason why I think, and I really thank our colleagues from the local authorities coming along today, is to see that there are real changes and improvements that can be made. And I would just ask people to focus on the tremendous opportunities there are, and of course whenever a change like this is put forward people can ridicule it, they can take it to extremes and say well what happens if you get a gang of crooks comes in and wants to run a school?
People always make those arguments and they always do whenever you put forward a change, they always take the most ludicrous far fetched - I am not saying the Guardian would do this incidentally - but they take the most ludicrous far fetched example and then they say is that what you are going to allow? Whereas as these colleagues showed, the reality is this is building on what is already there, but it gives us the chance to take it to a new level and a new level of partnership in which the local authorities have a strong role, in which we empower parents and communities at a local level, and most important of all we get the best education for our kids, because it isn't good enough at the moment. And anybody who has their children in the education system in London knows actually that there have been real improvements in London in the last few years and there is a sort of myth that nothing has happened, but London has been a fast improving part of the education system. But there is still the fact, and this is the judgment I make, if you get schools, as I was saying a moment or two ago, under 30 per cent of their kids getting 5 good GCSEs, I mean come on, it can't be right, not in this day and age. And the test I apply the whole time is what would I want for my own children, and what you want for your own children it is a good idea to try to give to all children, and in the end that is why it is important we get this through. So far more important than the process of it is the purpose of it.